EDUARD SHEVARDNADZE:"THE ARMENIANS WILL REALISE SOONER OR LATER THAT AZERBAIJAN HAS TO BE RECKONED WITH"

Eduard Amvrosevich Shevardnadze is one of the most experienced politicians not only in the post Soviet arena but also in world politics. He is a former member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU,  a former foreign minister of the Soviet Union, a politician who ruled Georgia for almost 30 years.  The "White Fox", as he is called in Georgia, is more popular in the West today than in his homeland. Some see him as a representative "of those who destroyed the united and inviolable  USSR", others as the man who initiated the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan and a man who did more for the unification of Germany than the Germans themselves…

Eduard Shevardnadze left big-time politics after the "rose revolution" and devoted  himself entirely to his family and grandchildren. But the ex-president, who, incidentally, recently turned 79, also finds time to talk to journalists who are very interested to find out what this most experienced man thinks about the political processes under way in the country, region and in the world as a whole. 

The R+ correspondent was one of the first to congratulate Eduard Shevardnadze on his 79th birthday. 

- Thank you very much for your congratulations. By the way,  I received a letter of congratulations from the ambassador of Azerbaijan to Georgia yesterday. And you came to congratulate me today, too. I am very glad to receive congratulations from Azerbaijanis who have always been close neighbors and friends for Georgians.  

"I thought that the USSR would disintegrate in 10-15 years. But events began to unfold much more quickly" 

- Eduard Amvrosevich, since we began our conversation with your birthday, I cannot but touch upon another important anniversary. As you know, last month it was exactly 15 years since the Soviet Union disintegrated. A great deal has been said about the reasons why this state collapsed. But it is very interesting to hear the opinion of a man who was a leader of the USSR almost up until the last.  So why did the Soviet Union disintegrate?   

- Yes, 15 years have gone by already and I will tell you in all sincerity: I realised right after Mikhail Gorbachev came to power that the Soviet Union would disintegrate in 10-15 years. I was convinced of this. But events began to unfold much more quickly than I thought they would. I was leader of Georgia when M. Gorbachev was elected first secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU in 1985.  We had very good relations. I would even say that we were friends. He received me after he was elected to this post, offered me the high-ranking position of minister of foreign affairs, of member of the Politburo, promised me a good salary and good living conditions. I soon moved to Moscow although I didn't want to move there at first. We worked well together for several years. I was a novice in this sphere, of course, with no experience of working in foreign affairs and counted very much on Gorbachev's support. The Kremlin had no clear foreign policy position at that time and the party and state leadership argued a lot about this. Gorbachev always defended me against attacks from the flanks.

- And then your paths diverged and you tendered your resignation in early 1991.  Many recall your famous statement about a coup in the making.  

- Yes, reliable information was received then that the counterrevolution was plotting an uprising against Gorbachev and Yeltsin who headed the Supreme Soviet of the RSFSR. I warned Gorbachev and he knew of that threat. But he failed to react to that and went on holiday without a word. It was after this that our relations became strained. I could not stand by and watch calmly as senior government and party members plotted a coup. And so I tendered my resignation. I thereby wanted to let the whole people know about the danger, the threat of a coup. It's true that Academician Likhachev then spoke on behalf of the party and said that they considered me to be a good and worthy leader who was fulfilling his functions honourably and conscientiously. They asked me to remain in my post and I did not refuse them. But a plot was drawn up inside the Politburo a few months later: members of the Politburo spoke out against Gorbachev. Everybody remembers these events, Gorbachev's speech, calls to the people to be vigilant, to unite and so on. But it was already too late. I had already resigned by then. Yakovlev stepped down at the same time as I did. He was one of our closest comrades-in-arms, an ideologist of perestroika and of renewal. Gorbachev, essentially, was left almost alone.  

- Eduard Amvrosevich, what role did the confrontation between Gorbachev and Yeltsin play in the disintegration of the USSR?

- The collapse of the Soviet Union was the main factor in the conflict between Gorbachev and Yeltsin. At that time, Yeltsin was the chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the RSFSR and we tried very hard to reconcile them. This  confrontation naturally had a very negative impact on foreign and domestic policy and weakened the state.

Gorbachev tried to employ various methods to gain the upper hand in this struggle. But a real force had risen up against him already: President of Russia Boris Yeltsin, President of Ukraine Kravchuk and President of Belarus Shushkevich. Their idea was to create a Slavonic Union. But I felt that this wouldn't happen since Russia is not just a Slavonic state - other peoples live there, too: the peoples of the North Caucasus and also of Tatarstan, Bashkortostan and other national autonomous regions and districts. As I had thought, the Slavonic Union came to nothing for them. All the more so since the president of Ukraine, Kravchuk, decided to hold a referendum and over 90 per cent of Ukrainians voted for independence. And so Ukraine was no longer in the game.   

-  What were your relations with Yeltsin like?  

- I was often in the White House - not as a minister but as an ordinary citizen. My soul ached over the situation the state was in, over what was happening around us. I went to see Yeltsin during the putsch. He said there were armed people 60 km from the White House. They would attack the White House sooner or later. Yeltsin showed me an appeal to the people and said: "Read it." It said: "In connection with the situation in the country, we call upon the people to mobilise all forces."  I said: "Don't just bring about a mobilization. The president of Russia should be the commander-in-chief of the armed forces which are based on the territory of Russia." Yeltsin asked me: "Should I sign the appeal or not?"  I said: "Sign it at once. Tomorrow will be too late."

Then, as you recall, the counterrevolutionaries were destroyed and Yeltsin spoke at a large rally at the White House. He spoke on a tank, as Lenin had aboard the cruiser Aurora. He said that the counterrevolutionaries had been defeated. Then he said to me: "Maybe you will speak?" I spoke rather well and sharply. I supported Yeltsin and the democratization of the Soviet Union. It's true that this Union later ceased to exist because they wanted independence. 

"Georgia was falling apart. And I decided I would return home!"

- And so you went back to Georgia again. This time to an independent Georgia. 

- Various delegations from Georgia came to see me after I had resigned - academics, scientists, actors and others. They set up a public organization, an association for foreign policy relations. I was elected chairman of it, I felt rather well and was working. But many people spoke to me and said that Georgia was dying, that it was completely in ruins. I spoke to my wife (the late Nanuli Shevardnadze - Editor) about it and she said that sooner or later we would have to go back to our native Georgia. I also spoke to my western friends. And I decided to return home!

To be honest, my western friends were a great help to me then. Baker came to Georgia then, familiarized himself with the  situation and said to me: "We will help you if you become legitimate because we can only help a legal, that is to say, a legitimate government."   They gave 300 million dollars worth of credit over a 10-year period. 

I set elections for the end of 1992 despite the fact that civil war was being waged in the country. These were the fairest elections in all the years of my leadership. We knew that the fate of Georgia depended on these elections and the vote was unanimous. I don't remember now specifically what the percentage of the vote was but the majority of the electorate supported me. 

- Heydar Aliyev was already the leader of Azerbaijan at that time.

- Yes, he became president three years before I did. Heydar Aliyev was already the leader of Azerbaijan when I returned to Georgia. We knew each other extremely well, held each other in high esteem and we were sincere friends.  He was a genuine man and a genuine president who did a great deal to secure Azerbaijan's independence. I often recall my meetings with Heydar Aliyevich. Since Soviet times. We met in Baku, Tbilisi and Yerevan two or three times a month. At that time, Karen Demirchyan was first secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Armenia, then later he became the chairman of the Supreme Soviet of Armenia. He was a remarkable man. The relations of the three leaders of the Caucasus republics were at the highest level. Incidentally, if Karen Demirchyan hadn't been killed in parliament, perhaps the Karabakh issue already would have been resolved. I knew his frame of mind. That was the real state of affairs. Heydar Aliyevich and Karen Demirchyan are no longer in this world. And I have retired.  

"I had tanks and they only had pistols. But I didn't want any bloodshed."

- This is probably one of the most painful times of your life, isn't it?

- Well, I don't know if this should be spoken of now… Those whom I had nurtured  decided that it was time for me to rest. But I could have withstood that pressure if I had wanted to. When groups of protestors broke into the parliament building I was still the country's president and commander-in-chief. I could have given an order then to the army which has tanks, guns and various state-of-the-art weapons. And they had at most machine guns and pistols. When they broke into parliament, I thought: what's the way out of the situation?!  An emergency situation! But what is that? I could have acted as I saw fit and could have used force, the army. But I didn't want that. When I was returning home from parliament, I thought in the car: what would the outcome of that be? Innocent people would die on both sides, there was no doubt. For me they are all fellow countrymen, citizens of Georgia. That is why when I was still sitting in the car, I phoned and cancelled the emergency situation. That was how I decided it all.

- Eduard Amvrosevich, at the start of our conversation, you said that you had very good relations with the leadership of Russia. But these relations deteriorated later during the time of independence. We all remember the events in Abkhazia, the role of Moscow in the conflicts on the territory of Georgia. Today, Abkhazia and South Ossetia are practically subordinate to their northern neighbour. Is there a way out of the situation?

- It really has turned out that these conflict territories are strategically very important for Russia. Especially Abkhazia. As you know, Russia lost all of its northern ports, apart from St Petersburg and Murmansk, after the collapse of the USSR.  The same thing happened in Crimea. You know that Crimea belonged to Russia and when Nikita Khrushchev came to power he gave it to Ukraine. The Black Sea ports of Sevastopol and Odessa remained part of Ukraine. That is why Russia has a great interest in winning Abkhazia so as not to lose the ports there. A solution could be found to the conflict - if you want a port let's build it together and use it jointly. But Russia does not yet want to resolve the Abkhaz problem. 

On the other hand, the Abkhaz want to be part of Russia but Russia is afraid. If Abkhazia breaks away and becomes part of Russia the same thing may happen both in Chechnya or Dagestan. Dagestan is a republic with a population of five million which exits on to the Caspian Sea. And then there is Tatarstan - a huge part of the state, and so forth. This scenario did not suit Russia, on the whole.

Georgia's incumbent president is  taking measures to resolve the conflict. Is there a real way out of the situation? There are different options. They must be found sooner or later. What is needed is a plan which is acceptable to both us and the Abkhaz. And it shouldn't be forgotten that in Abkhazia, Georgians account for 47 per cent of the population and Azerbaijanis 17 per cent. There were Russians and other peoples there too. All of that has to be taken into account.

- And what do you think about the conflict in Nagornyy Karabakh? It is a very similar situation after all, isn't it? 

- The situation there is a bit different for you. Georgia is a weak economic state, very weak. But for US support and aid, there would be no army at all. Former US Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld has visited, military experts have visited from the USA. They have not only trained but also financed our military. 

While Azerbaijan enjoys substantial revenue, maybe the people don't feel that yet, but the revenue is substantial. Any state-of-the-art weapon can be bought. It's true that the Russian factor also figures in Karabakh. Russia is not indifferent to Karabakh and the Karabakh conflict. But I think that the Armenians will realise sooner or later that a solution has to be found. Otherwise they may lose their independence. Because Azerbaijan is Azerbaijan. It is a strong state in the region and it has to be reckoned with. Azerbaijan is capable of resolving any problem by force. I think the Armenians will seek a solution to the conflict. 

- Incidentally, speaking about the position of the Armenians, I cannot fail to touch upon the situation in Samskhe-Dzhavakhetiya. The Armenians demand autonomy, that the Armenian language should be given the status of state language and so on. What can you say about that?       

- This is Georgian territory. Historically, other nationalities have lived there. Tsar Totleben decided to settle Armenians from Turkey in the Samskhe-Dzhavekhetiya region after they had appealed to him. Relations with our neighbours were friendly then as well as it was understood that they were in a difficult predicament. And this is how they came to settle in Georgia.

We have more than 400,000 Azerbaijanis in Georgia but they have not created a single problem there at any time. None at all. As secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Georgia and later as president, I always endeavoured to take their interests into account. And I also endeavour to do that now. Azerbaijanis have never created any problems at all for Georgia or Georgians. But in Armenia there are forces who encourage that.  Although they should realise that this will never end well. It's true that they have grown quieter of late. Especially after the withdrawal of Russia troops from Georgia. They (Armenians - Editor) have always been supporters of the Russian troops. But in my opinion, our Georgian Armenians behave relatively alright.

- Eduard Amvrosevich, this winter has been a very hard one for Georgia. The country has come up against severe energy problems. Don't you think that this crisis has strengthened even more the relations of friends and allies between Azerbaijan and Georgia?    

- I know very well the role that Azerbaijan played in resolving this crisis. And as a citizen of Georgia, I would like to express my profound gratitude to Ilham Aliyev. Although I am no longer president, I express the will of the whole Georgian people.

We won't forget that. Russia realised that it was not possible to buy gas at the price it was demanding. And the projects which Heydar Aliyevich and I drew up were the only salvation. Heydar Aliyevich and I initiated the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan and Baku-Tbilisi-Erzurum projects. And now there is a project to build a railway. Of course, the cost of it is substantial - probably 100-120 million dollars (the construction of the Georgian part of the railway - Editor). But it is worth paying this amount of money. Incidentally, Azerbaijan is also helping to build this railroad. Generally speaking, I am delighted with Ilham Aliyev. He conducts affairs so calmly. He is highly competent and has set up a good team. His father was a unique man. He built up the independent state of Azerbaijan on nothing. The incumbent president also faces major tasks. I don't know Mr Ilham Aliyev all that closely. But in my view he is a calm, clever and competent leader, a patriot of his people, an intellectual,  with political acumen, cultured and young. I am one hundred per cent sure that Ilham will be a worthy successor to his father. As always, Heydar Alieyevich got it right this time, too.